Posts by Disillusioned JW

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

The article called " Hercules and Alcestis: Personal Excellence & Social Duty " says the following.

"In the version popularized by Euripides in his play Alcestis (written c. 438 BCE), however, Hercules plays the pivotal role in bringing Alcestis back from the dead. ...

Hercules is mortified by his behavior and so travels to the underworld where Thanatos is leading Alcestis' spirit toward Persephone's realm. He wrestles death and frees the queen, bringing her back up into the light of day. Hercules then leads her to where Admetus is just returning from her funeral. He tells the king that he must depart on other business and asks him to take care of this lady while he is gone. Admetus refuses because he promised Alcestis that he would never marry again, and it would be unseemly for this woman to reside at the court so soon after his wife's death. Hercules insists, however, and places Alcestis' hand in Admetus'. Admetus lifts the woman's veil and finds it is Alcestis returned from the dead. Hercules tells him that she will not be able to speak for three days, and will remain pale and shadow-like, until she is purified, after which time she will become as she always was."

Notice that Alcestis is said to have had a spiritual resurrection (to have been raised as a spirit) and is said to later to have had physical body again. The scholar James Tabor says that the Christians first believed that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit, but that later Christians believed that the fleshy body of Jesus was also resurrected!

Also notice (in the story at the above mentioned website) that "Alcestis epitomizes the loyal, loving wife who is so devoted to her husband that she would literally die for him." Similarly John 15:13 (NASB) says that Jesus said "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that a person will lay down his life for his friends."

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

Correction: In prior post where I said "( a human, if if every really existed)" I meant to say "(a human, if he ever really existed)".

Folks, please consider the following. I read in more than one book about the Bible, the Jews, and the Jewish religion, that the Jews concluded during their exile in Babylon that reason why Jerusalem was destroyed and why the Jews went into exile is because many of the Jews committed idolatry, by worshiping someone (a perceived God, such as Baal) or something (such as a graven image) as God. They concluded not repeat that mistake again and instead to worship only YHWH God alone, and not any human. A great many Jews were thus resistant to adopt any form of Christianity in which Jesus was proclaimed as God or a god. Furthermore, the Gospels says that the Jewish religious leaders accused Jesus of blasphemy due to his statements about himself, which sounded like (at least in the minds of the Jewish leaders) of claiming deity.

A great many Greeks and Romans in contrast had no difficulty with the idea of a human also being a god/God and they had no difficulty with the idea of their being multiple gods/Gods. That is because there religions taught polytheism, including that at least one person was both a human and a god. Hercules was was consider a son of a virgin woman and the God Zeus - and at the time Zeus was elevated in status to being the father of the gods and chief god/God over humans, to being God the Father! Hercules was said to have amazing feats and to descended into Hades (the realm of the dead) and to have ascended out it. He is said to have gone into Hades and order to bring a dead human (who had become a spirit) out of Hades alive - to bring about a resurrection!

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What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

It seems like some people on this forum are saying (granted with some scriptural support) that both God the Father and Jesus Christ are Yahweh, but that conflicts with Deuteronomy 6:4. That verse is the one which says "Listen, O Israel, YHWH (Yahweh) our God is one YHWH (Yahweh)." The Jews (of Judaism), in the form in which they substitute the word Adonai (Lord) call it the Shema ("The Lord our God is one Lord"). It is a key teaching of the religion and a big part of the reason they reject the Trinity doctrine, and believe in strict monotheism instead.

There is also an OT verse which says that Yahweh says there was no God before him, nor any other God currently, and that there will be no God after him. Hypothetically speaking, if Yahweh God is for real, then that would have been an opportune time for his to say that he has a son who is also Yahweh and that together they are one God. It would have been an excellent time to proclaim the trinity doctrine, yet the OT doesn't do either. If it had, most likely far more Jews would have accepted Jesus as the son of God and as God. Right?

Vanderhoven7, I agree with you that is understandable that many people would worship Jesus if they believe the following: he created (and/or made) all entities other than himself and God the Father; all power in earth and heaven belong to him; he has a name which is above every name; at the name of Jesus every knee will bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord. But to me those teachings ascribe deity (or something very close to such) to him ( a human, if if every really existed), and is thus part of the strange (to me) worshipful mindset they have of Jesus, in contrast to what much of the OT (the OT is more than 3/4 of the Christian Bible) teaches!

According to the Bible Elijah (I think) say if Baal if God then worship him, but that is Yahweh is God then worship him. I think he also (according to the Bible), but perhaps it was a different prophet, said don't go limping on two different opinions, worship only being/person as God - not two (or more). The Trinitarian Christians worship 3 as God (while also saying there is only one God, but nonetheless God consists of three persons).

Regarding the nature of God (of the Bible) parts of the Bible are contradicting other parts of the Bible.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

Correction: In my post which is about an hour older than this post, where I said 'As a result, as once or twice I prayed to Jehovah before I became a convinced atheistic naturalist" I meant to say 'As a result, as once or twice I prayed to Jesus before I became a convinced atheistic naturalist."

Vanderhoven7, what do you think the Jews, specifically those who both believe Judaism and practice it, think of the NT's (the verses you cited) handling of passages about YHWH in the Hebrew Scriptures OT?What do you think they think of the NT's applying various OT verses about YHWH to Jesus?

The Book of Jubilees (an OT Apocryphal book which is part of the sacred scripture of the Ethiopic Orthodox Church, a Jewish leaning Christian Church) says that YHWH God ordered the angels of God to worship Adam (since Adam, according to Genesis and the Book of Jubilees) was made in God's image. It says that one angel, namely Satan, refused to do so because Satan thought it was wrong for himself to worship a being who was created later than Satan himself. From a scriptural point of view it would indeed to wrong for anyone to worship Adam instead of God, but interestingly some of NT writers say that Jesus (whom Paul says is the second Adam) should be worshiped).

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

Vanderhoven7, I added more content to my prior post before I refreshed the web page and saw your most recent post (about 8 minutes before I made the un-revised version of this post) in this topic thread. Please read my revised post. I agrees with some of what you said in your post.

I am aware that Hebrews 1:10-12 quotes Psalms 102:25-27; I note (written by me) in one of my 1984 NWT Bibles saying such.

Thankfully as a result of me now being an atheist I no longer believe I have to believe in some kind of supernatural god. I am now free to disbelieve in all god concepts, without any fear of possibly being wrong. I thus don't have to believe in polytheism, henotheism, trinity, binity, pure monotheism, angels, demons, or even deism. All of those god (and god-like) concepts (other than deism) are strange to me, and as a result of my research (which led me to atheism) all of them (except perhaps deism) are proven false to well beyond a reasonable doubt. I also think there is a good scientifically based case against deism, but that case is not as strong as the case against the other mentioned god (and god-like) concepts.

As to the concept of pantheism, that god concept is unclear, for what does it mean for one to say that the universe (or multiverse, if such exists) is god/God? Is the universe, as a whole, in some sense conscious? If not, how it can it be thought of god/God - even though it created us and even though we are a part of it?

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

Vanderhoven7 I wasn't aware of Zechariah 3:2 (1977 NASB) saying 'And the LORD [Jehovah] said to Satan, "The LORD [Jehovah] rebuke you Satan! ....".' The 1984 NWT in that verse says 'Then [the angel of] Jehovah said to Satan: "Jehovah rebuke you ...".' I can see how you and could see Zechariah 3:2 saying that it speaks of two persons named Jehovah in light of what verse. But until I see more evidence for that view, II think the NWT's use of "[the angel of]" is likely correct in that verse, in light of what verse 1 says. I think another possible way of interpreting the verse could be that Jehovah God the Father is saying that he himself rebuked Satan. In other words I think that a translation expressing the meaning of verse could possibly be accurately worded as follows. 'And Jehovah said to Satan, I Jehovah rebuke you Satan! ...".'

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Greek Septuagint likely says "Iesous" ["Jesus"] in verse one in place of "Joshua" since the name Iesous/Jesus (though not referring to Christ) is the Greek transliteration of the name Joshua. Interestingly the NT says that Jesus Christ is a high priest.

That verse can be understood as an individual (not named Jehovah) acting on behalf of Jehovah, and as result the credit is given to Jehovah. That view is like how human rulers are often said to have taken various actions, when literally it were persons under their authority who literal took the actions, acting in behalf of the rulers.

The words in Hebrews 1:8 which say "Your throne, O God" ["God is your throne" in the 1984 NWT) are a quote of part of Psalms 45:6. I have done research about that I have concluded that the translation of "God is your throne" of part of Psalms 45:6 is a plausible one, referring to a person (the Messiah/Christ) receiving his kingly authority from God the Father. But I can also see the plausibility of the idea of the Messiah being referred to as God.

The passages you mentioned from Psalms in reference to Hebrews chapter 1, as well as what Paul said in Romans (about Jesus is Lord (Jehovah)), and some other verses caused me (during the latter part of the time of me being an independent Christian) to conclude there is some support for the binity doctrine, for part of the NT saying that Jesus is in some sense Jehovah and can thus be called "Jehovah", and that it is OK for a Christian to pray to Jesus and to worship Jesus. As a result, as once or twice I prayed to Jehovah before I became a convinced atheistic naturalist.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

Riley, are you a trinitarian, or are you saying the Bible has problems? Or is neither the case? I notice you said "The Jehovah said to Jehovah", but no Bible verse says that. Psalms 110: 1 (translated from the Hebrew) says "YHWH (Jehovah) says to my Lord ...". and that corresponding phrase translated from the Greek Septuagint (and from the NT quote of that verse) says "Kryrios (Lord [meaning YHWH/Jehovah]) said to my lord ...". There is nothing in those verses to indicate that both individuals in those verses are named YHWH/Jehovah.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

Perhaps a bigger factor, than the exclusion of the name YHWH in ancient copies of the NT, in why I started to have doubts about Jehovah's existence when I was a Christian, was the exclusion of the name from nearly all copies of the Septuagint and the widespread exclusion of the name in other translations of the OT, and the loss of knowing the correct pronunciation of the name.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

Thanks. I had forgotten about that site. About the time I made my post I found https://wtarchive.wordpress.com/ and another site.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

Vanderhoven7, do you have a digital source for 'Let God Be True', 1952 edition? if so, what is your digital source for it?